The MCU definitely needed a longer pause. I wouldn't even have minded the "multiverse" if they had just used it as an excuse to reset everything AND move away from the MCU "house style", branching out into more unique stuff. Instead they tried to cling to the old style and remaining characters/actors while doing a multiverse *plot* which just doesn't work. Every good reason to do a multiverse is artistic, not narrative.
On the plus side, I saw the new Spider-Man last night and liked it a lot! It gets a little long-winded in the last act (I actually thought it was over before it started doing a whole other thing). But Spider-Man is a great character and he gets to do a lot of cool Spider-Man things, and he basically stays in NYC the whole time doing it, which is really his element. I would say it's closer to Spider-Man 2 than they've ever gotten. And aside from the effects of the "mind wipe" from the last movie, there's no multiverse stuff whatsoever. (Also there are one or two really cool surprises, but I won't hint at them too much here.)
I am fond of The Last Jedi even though I understand there are a lot of problems with it. Some bullet points on how I would've fixed it:
- Leia uses the Force to sacrifice her ship with that hyperspace maneuver
- Luke senses this when it happens, which is when he turns around and starts helping Rey
- Kylo's revenge obsession distances him from the other Imperials
- Rebels want to focus on rebuilding and diplomacy after all those planets got blowed up, but overlook some injustice happening on that weird casino planet
- Rey & Finn join with Kylo and separate from the 2 factions (possibly with Luke, not sure)
Is it jumping the shark if bad press has squashed almost every project leading up to the next big crossover film? Meanwhile, the premise is not from thin air but from crossover stories in the original material. If the MCU is finished, it's because Disney completely dropped the ball on marketing, rather than because there's no more story.
Reposted from the main site: I'm very tempted to say, "Tell you you have never read comics without telling me you've never read comics." I've loved the multiverse stuff from DC and Marvel since I first started reading them when, I don't know, I was 7 or 8, maybe? And I'm almost 59 now? DC's had multiverse stuff baked in since before I was born. I loved the adventures of the Justice League on Earth-One and the intriguing adventures of the Justice Society on Earth-Two (and Captain Marvel (not "Shazam," please--that's the name of the ancient wizard) on Earth-S, the Freedom Fighters on Earth-X, their various battles against the evil counterparts of the Justice League on Earth-3 (the Crime Syndicate with the evil Superman, Ultraman (no relation to the clone from the awesome Superman movie from last year--I think he'll wind up as Bizarro, actually)), and many more. Marvel has its own array of worlds going back decades (at least 50 years). And changes and dangers and deaths on the main worlds have always mattered. Saying "Oh, there's a parallel world out there where Gwen Stacy lived"--that has never meant that her death never mattered, ever, at all. I *love* the exploration of the multiverse in both Marvel and DC, and I'm very much looking forward to it in the upcoming Avengers movie. (We're finally getting two major batches of characters which, due to licensing, have not been able to be part of the main Marvel movie universe--the X-Men and the Fantastic Four. The Fantastic Four have been the heart, the "first family" of the Marvel Universe from the start, and the X-Men are a different kind of found family and have been since the "new batch" came along in the mid-1970s.) These are characters who have (mostly) been around for longer than I have been alive (and, especially at DC, whose official multiverse has been around longer than I've been alive--Marvel didn't really start exploring theirs much until the mid-1970s, which is still 50 years ago). Comics have also been killing and bringing characters back from the dead for an extremely long time. We never thought they'd bring back Bucky, who seemed to be one death we thought they'd never undo, but in 2005, they brought him back as the Winter Soldier, and he seems to have been fairly popular, even getting his own movie, as you know. (I can't believe Bucky's been back for over 20 years now--2005 seems like yesterday, and 2014 for the Winter Soldier movie seems like five minutes ago.) So, yeah, we're going to profoundly disagree that the multiverse is (1) a bad idea and (2) trying to "have it all" in some weird, unhealthy, anti-Christian sense (that was a very strange assumption in the podcast) and (3) some kind of act of desperation on the part of storytellers. (If anything, I think DC trying to mash everything together from their different worlds into one universe in 1985 in Crisis on Infinite Earths was the mistake--not having the different worlds in the first place. Happily, while we still haven't seen the classic Earth-Two lately, we have infinite Earths again, thank God, so maybe we'll get some more Earth-Two stories out of the awesome Roy Thomas (85 years old now). And we're getting the 30th/31st-century Legion of Super-Heroes back in a new series starting in September, albeit a new version of them. (It does look like the classic ones are still around in the current multiverse in some way, happily.) We've got the bottle city of Kandor back, and Krypto and even Streaky (I don't know if Kandor or Streaky will show up in the movies. Maybe?). (Yes, I'm a geek.) And I could go on for a terrifyingly long time about the Marvel Universe and its various developments, but there's a non-zero chance that Skye and/or David will see this and not read it (I hope you guys do...) as it's relatively long already.
The Odyssey was the Core book for Wheaton College in 2024-2025. Although I normally read each book during the school year, I did not for The Odyssey. When I heard that Christopher Nolan was remaking The Odyssey, I determined to re-read the Odyssey and listen to the WC podcasts discussing the poem before going to see the movie. I finally saw the movie last Sunday 8/3. Note I also did not listen to your podcasts about the Odyssey (one with Nijay Gupta and this one with David French) until I saw it.
While the filming and scenery is amazing, I was stunned and disappointed at how fundamentally different the movie is from the actual epic poem. I accept that movie directors may need to make changes to the story so that it works better on screen—e.g. I’m not concerned that Nolan entirely removed the role of the Phaecians in helping Odysseus get home—however the fundamental change to the character of Odysseus is unsettling. In the epic poem, he had no regret for the deception of the Trojan horse; he is not suffering memory loss of what actually happened to his men; he has no confession; and his son Telemachus participates in the vengeance against the suitors and there is no exile at the end of the epic poem. Essentially, everything you liked about the movie is not in the epic poem.
In addition to have Nolan define Zeus’ law—through the character of Penelope—as “do unto others” was offensive. The church did not co-opt Greek wisdom; that is a unique teaching of Jesus Christ.
When I left the theater, I determined to re-read/finish the book Dominion by Tom Holland. In the book, his premise is that Christianity has so influenced Western civilization, whether we acknowledge it or not it, that it affects how we think. And that thinking is different than Ancient Greek thought.
So why did Nolan so fundamentally change the epic poem? Was he acknowledging Tom Holland’s premise that he needed to make it more palatable to Western mindsets? Or is he countering Holland’s premise and trying to convince us that Western mindsets are actually based on Greek wisdom?
I’ve disliked the super hero movies for years for a multitude of reasons.
I’m also skeptical of most time travel movies. I’m a mathematician.
As such, if there is time travel, I want the fictional world the writers create to follow a set of rules or laws about the actions that can occur within their created universe.
A series I have enjoyed is called “The Way Home” involving time travel. Rotten Tomatoes gave its Season 1 a 100% score.
The writing is tight, suspenseful, fun, dramatic, etc.
It stars an ensemble cast including Andie McDowell, Chyler Leigh (from Grey’s Anatomy) and other excellent actors.
Andie plays against type-playing a brittle, trauma suffering, and lonely women. The other characters are also well developed. It was supposed to air originally on Netflix.
The executive who championed the series, jumped ship to Hallmark 4 years ago and took the project with her.
The series got erroneously labeled as a chick series.
Yes, there is incredible character development and relationship plot lines. However, the audience has been about 50% male. They report loving the series as well.
Right now, Seasons 1-3 are available on Netflix. All 4 seasons are available on HallmarkPlus. (It’s not the normal Hallmark fare.) The executive who brought the series left Hallmark earlier this winter. Despite excellent ratings, Hallmark ended the series prematurely after the 4th season this year.
The content is more intense than Hallmark has been used to.
Big MAGA supporters, like the KC Chiefs owner (also a Kanakuk Camp donor and a Hallmark board member) were worried that the Evangelicals might not like some story elements of “The Way Home”.
@Skye Jethani - the Rise of Skywalker is a weird story to read about because it’s been told that Kathleen Kennedy and JJ Abrams ASKED for more time to make the movie well and Disney/Bob Iger kept telling them “no”.
I used to think you simply couldn't make a good Star Wars prequel, or a good Star Wars that really dives into the political situation -- I figured there just wasn't enough meat on that bone. Andor proved that you actually can -- it's just that George Lucas can't. It's sad because that kind of tone could potentially have elevated the franchise to the next level, much like Empire did back in the day -- a great sequel ups the complexity a bit while retaining what people love about the story. Alas, a prequel is inherently pretty constraining. Doubly so when is’s technically a sequel to a prequel and the main character’s fate is already known. There's basically no room to expand on it.
The MCU definitely needed a longer pause. I wouldn't even have minded the "multiverse" if they had just used it as an excuse to reset everything AND move away from the MCU "house style", branching out into more unique stuff. Instead they tried to cling to the old style and remaining characters/actors while doing a multiverse *plot* which just doesn't work. Every good reason to do a multiverse is artistic, not narrative.
On the plus side, I saw the new Spider-Man last night and liked it a lot! It gets a little long-winded in the last act (I actually thought it was over before it started doing a whole other thing). But Spider-Man is a great character and he gets to do a lot of cool Spider-Man things, and he basically stays in NYC the whole time doing it, which is really his element. I would say it's closer to Spider-Man 2 than they've ever gotten. And aside from the effects of the "mind wipe" from the last movie, there's no multiverse stuff whatsoever. (Also there are one or two really cool surprises, but I won't hint at them too much here.)
I am fond of The Last Jedi even though I understand there are a lot of problems with it. Some bullet points on how I would've fixed it:
- Leia uses the Force to sacrifice her ship with that hyperspace maneuver
- Luke senses this when it happens, which is when he turns around and starts helping Rey
- Kylo's revenge obsession distances him from the other Imperials
- Rebels want to focus on rebuilding and diplomacy after all those planets got blowed up, but overlook some injustice happening on that weird casino planet
- Rey & Finn join with Kylo and separate from the 2 factions (possibly with Luke, not sure)
Is it jumping the shark if bad press has squashed almost every project leading up to the next big crossover film? Meanwhile, the premise is not from thin air but from crossover stories in the original material. If the MCU is finished, it's because Disney completely dropped the ball on marketing, rather than because there's no more story.
Reposted from the main site: I'm very tempted to say, "Tell you you have never read comics without telling me you've never read comics." I've loved the multiverse stuff from DC and Marvel since I first started reading them when, I don't know, I was 7 or 8, maybe? And I'm almost 59 now? DC's had multiverse stuff baked in since before I was born. I loved the adventures of the Justice League on Earth-One and the intriguing adventures of the Justice Society on Earth-Two (and Captain Marvel (not "Shazam," please--that's the name of the ancient wizard) on Earth-S, the Freedom Fighters on Earth-X, their various battles against the evil counterparts of the Justice League on Earth-3 (the Crime Syndicate with the evil Superman, Ultraman (no relation to the clone from the awesome Superman movie from last year--I think he'll wind up as Bizarro, actually)), and many more. Marvel has its own array of worlds going back decades (at least 50 years). And changes and dangers and deaths on the main worlds have always mattered. Saying "Oh, there's a parallel world out there where Gwen Stacy lived"--that has never meant that her death never mattered, ever, at all. I *love* the exploration of the multiverse in both Marvel and DC, and I'm very much looking forward to it in the upcoming Avengers movie. (We're finally getting two major batches of characters which, due to licensing, have not been able to be part of the main Marvel movie universe--the X-Men and the Fantastic Four. The Fantastic Four have been the heart, the "first family" of the Marvel Universe from the start, and the X-Men are a different kind of found family and have been since the "new batch" came along in the mid-1970s.) These are characters who have (mostly) been around for longer than I have been alive (and, especially at DC, whose official multiverse has been around longer than I've been alive--Marvel didn't really start exploring theirs much until the mid-1970s, which is still 50 years ago). Comics have also been killing and bringing characters back from the dead for an extremely long time. We never thought they'd bring back Bucky, who seemed to be one death we thought they'd never undo, but in 2005, they brought him back as the Winter Soldier, and he seems to have been fairly popular, even getting his own movie, as you know. (I can't believe Bucky's been back for over 20 years now--2005 seems like yesterday, and 2014 for the Winter Soldier movie seems like five minutes ago.) So, yeah, we're going to profoundly disagree that the multiverse is (1) a bad idea and (2) trying to "have it all" in some weird, unhealthy, anti-Christian sense (that was a very strange assumption in the podcast) and (3) some kind of act of desperation on the part of storytellers. (If anything, I think DC trying to mash everything together from their different worlds into one universe in 1985 in Crisis on Infinite Earths was the mistake--not having the different worlds in the first place. Happily, while we still haven't seen the classic Earth-Two lately, we have infinite Earths again, thank God, so maybe we'll get some more Earth-Two stories out of the awesome Roy Thomas (85 years old now). And we're getting the 30th/31st-century Legion of Super-Heroes back in a new series starting in September, albeit a new version of them. (It does look like the classic ones are still around in the current multiverse in some way, happily.) We've got the bottle city of Kandor back, and Krypto and even Streaky (I don't know if Kandor or Streaky will show up in the movies. Maybe?). (Yes, I'm a geek.) And I could go on for a terrifyingly long time about the Marvel Universe and its various developments, but there's a non-zero chance that Skye and/or David will see this and not read it (I hope you guys do...) as it's relatively long already.
In regards to your discussion of the Odyssey:
The Odyssey was the Core book for Wheaton College in 2024-2025. Although I normally read each book during the school year, I did not for The Odyssey. When I heard that Christopher Nolan was remaking The Odyssey, I determined to re-read the Odyssey and listen to the WC podcasts discussing the poem before going to see the movie. I finally saw the movie last Sunday 8/3. Note I also did not listen to your podcasts about the Odyssey (one with Nijay Gupta and this one with David French) until I saw it.
While the filming and scenery is amazing, I was stunned and disappointed at how fundamentally different the movie is from the actual epic poem. I accept that movie directors may need to make changes to the story so that it works better on screen—e.g. I’m not concerned that Nolan entirely removed the role of the Phaecians in helping Odysseus get home—however the fundamental change to the character of Odysseus is unsettling. In the epic poem, he had no regret for the deception of the Trojan horse; he is not suffering memory loss of what actually happened to his men; he has no confession; and his son Telemachus participates in the vengeance against the suitors and there is no exile at the end of the epic poem. Essentially, everything you liked about the movie is not in the epic poem.
In addition to have Nolan define Zeus’ law—through the character of Penelope—as “do unto others” was offensive. The church did not co-opt Greek wisdom; that is a unique teaching of Jesus Christ.
When I left the theater, I determined to re-read/finish the book Dominion by Tom Holland. In the book, his premise is that Christianity has so influenced Western civilization, whether we acknowledge it or not it, that it affects how we think. And that thinking is different than Ancient Greek thought.
So why did Nolan so fundamentally change the epic poem? Was he acknowledging Tom Holland’s premise that he needed to make it more palatable to Western mindsets? Or is he countering Holland’s premise and trying to convince us that Western mindsets are actually based on Greek wisdom?
More talk about Trump’s overt corruption along with discussion about “The Odyssey”. This is a follow up. https://substack.com/@sykescharlie/note/c-306096866?r=djeg&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action
I’ve disliked the super hero movies for years for a multitude of reasons.
I’m also skeptical of most time travel movies. I’m a mathematician.
As such, if there is time travel, I want the fictional world the writers create to follow a set of rules or laws about the actions that can occur within their created universe.
A series I have enjoyed is called “The Way Home” involving time travel. Rotten Tomatoes gave its Season 1 a 100% score.
The writing is tight, suspenseful, fun, dramatic, etc.
It stars an ensemble cast including Andie McDowell, Chyler Leigh (from Grey’s Anatomy) and other excellent actors.
Andie plays against type-playing a brittle, trauma suffering, and lonely women. The other characters are also well developed. It was supposed to air originally on Netflix.
The executive who championed the series, jumped ship to Hallmark 4 years ago and took the project with her.
The series got erroneously labeled as a chick series.
Yes, there is incredible character development and relationship plot lines. However, the audience has been about 50% male. They report loving the series as well.
Right now, Seasons 1-3 are available on Netflix. All 4 seasons are available on HallmarkPlus. (It’s not the normal Hallmark fare.) The executive who brought the series left Hallmark earlier this winter. Despite excellent ratings, Hallmark ended the series prematurely after the 4th season this year.
The content is more intense than Hallmark has been used to.
Big MAGA supporters, like the KC Chiefs owner (also a Kanakuk Camp donor and a Hallmark board member) were worried that the Evangelicals might not like some story elements of “The Way Home”.
Oh well. The series is quite good.
@Skye Jethani - the Rise of Skywalker is a weird story to read about because it’s been told that Kathleen Kennedy and JJ Abrams ASKED for more time to make the movie well and Disney/Bob Iger kept telling them “no”.
@Skye Jethani - I’m curious as to what you two thought of Star Wars: Andor as a TV Series. I couldn’t find any place where you have talked about it.
Loved Andor! It's mature, smart Star Wars for grown-ups.
I used to think you simply couldn't make a good Star Wars prequel, or a good Star Wars that really dives into the political situation -- I figured there just wasn't enough meat on that bone. Andor proved that you actually can -- it's just that George Lucas can't. It's sad because that kind of tone could potentially have elevated the franchise to the next level, much like Empire did back in the day -- a great sequel ups the complexity a bit while retaining what people love about the story. Alas, a prequel is inherently pretty constraining. Doubly so when is’s technically a sequel to a prequel and the main character’s fate is already known. There's basically no room to expand on it.